This is a translation of the original French transcript.
HOST:
Hello, my name is Émilie Delattre. Welcome to the 10,000 ways podcast.
(Music in)
POONEH MAGHOUL:
I wasn’t born in Canada. I grew up with a different way of thinking.
HOST:
This podcast features curious researchers, leading-edge science and the joys of discovery.
POONEH MAGHOUL:
And then one thing an Indigenous colleague said to me, which really touched me enormously, was that the Earth is our mother: we never sell our mother. And I didn’t grow up with that. Yes, I grew up and I was brought up to respect nature. But I didn’t grow up in an environment where the Earth became ... so sacred that we had to respect it.
HOST:
In this episode, you’ll discover how a geotechnical engineer, who works with the soil and has to do excavation work, comes to show consideration for the Earth in a way she was totally unaccustomed to. An immigrant to Canada some twenty years ago now, she has almost entirely redefined herself through perseverance, listening and introspection.
And now it’s our turn to listen.
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POONEH MAGHOUL:
My name is Pooneh Maghoul, and I’m a full professor at Polytechnique Montréal. I’m the founder and director of a research laboratory called Sustainable Infrastructure and Geoengineering, and I’m also the co-founder and director of partnerships and communications for a research unit called Astrolith.
When I talk about geo-infrastructure, I’m really talking about anything built on the ground using geomaterials, including embankments and dams. You can even talk about tailings facilities — anything that involves extraction, construction, the interaction of structures with the ground, with the foundation, that really falls into the ... I call it geo-infrastructure.
HOST:
No pun intended, but what’s the point of “digging” in the ground for the average man and woman?
POONEH MAGHOUL:
In fact, I’d like to put it that way. I’m an engineer, and I develop technologies. And sometimes, we stay so, I’ll say “hard tech,” and we develop, we manipulate things, and then we work with signals, we try to develop mathematical models. Sometimes, for us, it becomes really hard to see the impact we could have on people.
I’m not in biomedical engineering, of course. I don’t work with patients. I don’t work with the nurses or the doctors in the hospital. I’m in a field that touches the ground, in civil engineering, construction, mining engineering. So, we’d like to be able to translate the cutting-edge technologies we’re developing in the laboratory from a soil sample. And we have a lot at stake, especially in terms of climate. We’d like to make roads that are resilient to climate change.
If we don’t manage to have critical infrastructures that are resilient to climate change, people, Northern communities, can’t be fed properly; their access to hospitals or clinics is cut off, and then everything is really in question: communicating with other parts of the country.
Let’s imagine we have a slope, called “retrogressive thaw slump,” which is like permafrost degrading due to climate change. And even if the road is fine, the slopes are in fact unstable, falling onto the road and really cutting off access. In fact, for these communities, the road we use in the Far North is the only way to be connected. And at all costs, we’d like to maintain the integrity of these infrastructures so that the communities can in fact exchange, engage in economic activities, etc.
For me, permafrost behaviour is a project I take to heart because of its impact on communities.
HOST:
So deteriorating roads, in the Far North or elsewhere, really do become a major socioeconomic issue. It can be tragic, for oneself or for others.
In today’s context of dramatic climate change, it’s easy to see how important it is to be able to predict the locations most at risk.
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But will we have the right prediction tools in 2025?
POONEH MAGHOUL:
We’d like to set up a … warning platform. It’s called an “early warning system.” Even if it’s not really an exact science, at least it gives us a ... warning, a system that tells us that, “Look, your tailings facility is okay for the moment, but with climate change in 5 or 10 years, we may have instability problems in this area ... That’s the risk statement.”
It’s very hard to do; there are a lot of uncertainties because the soil is such a complex material.
So, understanding its behaviour is the first thing we need to do if we’re really going to implement asures.
The problem with permafrost is that, in technical language, we use a term like creep. If you want to know what creep is, think of a creamy cake that you’re supposed to keep in the fridge, but leave on the counter.
HOST:
A creamy cake really speaks to me ...
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But Pooneh Maghoul is no pastry chef. To secure our infrastructures, she combines the development of mathematical models, soil sampling and analysis of data obtained from satellite remote sensing. And, as in the best recipes, she has hit on the magic ingredient!
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POONEH MAGHOUL:
So, we’ve actually integrated our invention into the equipment, an advanced axial sorting system, which really gives us information that until now was impossible to determine.
That’s what makes this equipment so unique, because we’ve incorporated the ultrasonic system, our own invention that we developed.
Through ultrasound waves, we are able to give soil sample properties that, with existing equipment, we weren’t actually able to determine.
So, it’s a technology that’s really made in Canada, that’s used by Canadian researchers, and of course international researchers, so it’s part of collaborations, and it’s for the benefit of Canadians and communities in the Far North.
So, I’m very proud of this work because I know that building foundations are solid, they’re rigid; children who go to school don’t really have to have safety problems or anything like that.
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HOST
She said she didn’t work in biomedical engineering with patients ...
Nevertheless, Pooneh Maghoul has in a way invented a “soil stethoscope” to take better care of the surfaces on which we build our homes, schools, hospitals, bridges and roads.
It’s ingenious because the soil is very versatile and hides many mysteries ... And in that sense, it’s not so different from the human body!
POONEH MAGHOUL:
The floor is exactly like human beings, like bodies. We come in many shapes. You can’t really reproduce the same recommendations, the same thing for every type of floor you have.
You can find places where the soil is okay in the sense that ... it’s healthy, there’s no problem. And then with climate change, you can have serious environmental factors, but you don’t have that many problems. And you may find in a region that we think the impact of climate change is pretty moderate, but the soil is problematic. So, you really have to take a very holistic approach in the sense that you really have to study the environment you’re in.
HOST:
The ground’s opacity makes it no easy subject to study, as anything opaque is a little elusive.
It’s often easier to pretend there’s nothing to see or hear!
But Pooneh Maghoul is not in the habit of turning a blind eye or a deaf ear.
So, she couldn’t pretend not to hear this wise Indigenous saying ...
(Music in)
POONEH MAGHOUL:
I wasn’t born in Canada. I grew up with a different way of thinking.
When I talk to the communities and see their perspective on the environment, one thing an Indigenous colleague said to me really touched me enormously.
It was that the Earth is our mother: we never sell our mother. And then, I didn’t grow up with that, and when I heard it, I kind of ... yes, I grew up and I was brought up to respect nature. But I didn’t grow up in an environment where the Earth was so sacred that we had to respect it and really ... how shall I put it?
And that’s very important to me because I’m a geotechnical engineer, so I work with the earth, I work with the soil. And then, when you think about doing earthworks, the one thing you don’t think about is that the soil is your mother! [LAUGHS]
Listen, it’s ...
And now I’m wondering if we really want to touch the ground or do earthworks with this mentality?
What do we need to change in our practices? Many, many things. So, for me, that was really a phase of reflection ...
It’s up to us to interpret; it’s like listening and interpreting. And then having an open mind, too. It’s like respecting, listening and reflecting.
All I can say is that the exchange I had with ... with this colleague helped me develop new research projects for permafrost stabilization. I’m still technical, but I’m trying to respect my mother this time! [LAUGHS]
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HOST:
What has this meeting of cultures taught her?
POONEH MAGHOUL:
Being humble, being down-to-earth ...
What can I say? I’m an immigrant, and I’ve gone through several phases of change of environment in my evolution as a person and as a professional.
The first thing is to listen. And that everything I’ve learned in my life isn’t taken for granted. In the sense that maybe one thing in my culture is okay, and then, in another culture, it’s the opposite! And you always have to take a neutral approach, in the sense of seeing, listening and thinking.
And that, behind every behaviour, behind every sentence, there’s a person with their own background, with their own path, with their own lifestyle. And it’s very important to consider this.
For me, integration always comes from taking the first step and trying: trying to understand. And Canada is a very open country.
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And I’m really proudly Canadian, and I’ve adopted its values. In fact, I love this open-mindedness, the values, the freedom I can have and what I’ve seen myself in my professional life. There are opportunities. Maybe it needs repeating a thousand times over, but I’m going to try once more!
And it worked! So, it’s not easy, of course. We work in an environment that isn’t necessarily perfect. There are a lot of flaws.
And then, as a responsible citizen, we’re there to correct the system, so we contribute. And when I say contribute, it’s not just paying taxes. We contribute to improve where we live. As a university professor, it’s part of my job to improve the system, educate the next generation and train the scientists of tomorrow. And I always try to give my students this perspective. You have to make an effort; never give in. And then, if one door is closed, there’s certainly another door behind the building. If in fact the other door is closed, there are windows.
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HOST:
Today, Pooneh Maghoul doesn’t deny herself, but absorbs the riches of a new world in which she laughs and feels fulfilled ... Even if ... it really hasn’t been a smooth ride to get here.
Of Iranian origin, she studied in France and then made the leap across the Atlantic Ocean ...
Every journey is different, of course, but in her place, more than one person would have given up.
See for yourself ...
POONEH MAGHOUL:
In terms of professional development, it wasn’t easy to convince people to forget clichés and prejudices. And that has a huge impact on our work; but that’s what I love about Canada ...
I said: it’s not easy, but it’s possible. When I left my country, I was very young, 20 years old. I really turned over a new leaf and developed my career abroad. But one thing I know: over there, it’s impossible; here, it’s hard, but it’s possible.
I did my PhD on earthquake engineering. And when I started doing my job as a teacher, I started working in a place that didn’t necessarily have seismicity.
So, I was looking at the university’s strategic plan. I said they’ve invested a lot in the Far North, in everything from climate change to Northern communities and so on. And I just ... I loved it!
So, I started to develop my research a little on everything to do with Northern development and Northern infrastructure. And when I made my first grant applications, most of them ... I was a beginner; I was still learning things, but I can only tell you that the success rate wasn’t high. And sometimes the feedback I got, I felt it had nothing to do with the content of my technical grant applications.
But I never gave up. I applied for grants, and I remember it was the new program: the New Frontiers in Research Fund in 2018, 2019, that the Canadian government launched. It was ... in English, we say “double blind.” The evaluators couldn’t see who was applying. And when I got the email, I opened it and cried.
For me, it was proof that you never give in. You have to keep pushing. And then I had $200,000 to start what I thought had to be done. I started this project and then a few months later, we were working on how to use seismic methods to characterize permafrost.
HOST:
However exhilarated she may have been by her project, Pooneh Maghoul never cut herself off from the rest of the world — on the contrary! And that’s how other ideas are born and other projects take shape.
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POONEH MAGHOUL:
And then, a few months later, I saw the announcement from NASA and the return of the Artemis program and that they want to actually build a permanent base on the Moon. And one of the big issues for them is finding water on the Moon. And I looked at the ad a little bit. And I said, “Wow! It’s really great what they’re going to do! But how can I fit in and work in this field?”
I did a little research and said, “Yes, they’re looking for water. It’s very similar to what we do to characterize permafrost.” So, I started writing the first grant applications to the Canadian Space Agency. Of course, they were turned down. But I’d learned: “Never give in.” Every time there was a response, I really took it to heart and considered it in my new applications, and in the end, it worked: Canada’s Far North was going to the Moon!
And then, it opened up many, many opportunities to do research, to really bring cutting-edge technologies and everything I’m developing for space exploration to permafrost zones in the Far North. There’s a direct application.
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And then, it’s ... I’m proud in the sense that I had a lot of difficulties and finally I managed to overcome them.
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And right now, I just want to tell you that I’ve ... I’ve cried twice in my career as a teacher.
The first time was when the New Frontiers in Research Fund application was accepted. The second time was when we got the email from the Canadian Space Agency saying that they’d only chosen two projects. And then one project was our project. And this time, it lasted like ... a month. [LAUGHS] Every time it reminded me of that project, I’d, I’d cry right there.
It’s not just the research, it’s really a pride that ... a pride that it ... it helps me to be, like, humble. Pride that it’s obtained with a lot of difficulty and that I have to remain humble, be grateful. And to be grateful that I live in a country that still gives me this opportunity.
HOST:
American psychiatrist David Burns said what Pooneh Maghoul herself embodies so wonderfully:
“Never give up your right to make mistakes because you will lose the ability to learn new things and move forward in life.”
Pooneh opened up to others and learned more about them and herself.
She allowed herself to respect nature even more than she had been taught to, and to continue her important work of soil analysis while caring for the Earth. Her sights are now set on the Moon, making her a necessary link between all the elements of our existence.
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You’ve been listening to a podcast produced by the Canada Foundation for Innovation.
The CFI is a not-for-profit organization that provides funding to Canadian universities, colleges, research hospitals and non-profit research institutions to invest in research infrastructure.
To find out more, visit our website: Innovation.ca.
My name is Émilie Delattre. Thank you for listening.
See you soon!
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