HOST:
This is a Canada Foundation for Innovation podcast.
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Hello and welcome to 10,000 ways. This is a podcast about curious researchers, leading edge science and the joy of discovery.
Our podcast gets it’s name from Thomas Edison who said, “I have not failed. I’ve successfully found 10,000 ways that will not work.”
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NAFISSA ISMAIL:
My name is Nafissa Ismail. I’m a professor in the School of Psychology in the Faculty of Social Sciences at the University of Ottawa, and I also hold the Research Chair in Stress and Mental Health at the University of Ottawa.
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HOST:
In 2019, one in eight people worldwide had a mental disorder, with anxiety and depressive disorders being the most common.
After the COVID-19 pandemic, the worldwide prevalence of depression and anxiety is estimated to have increased by 25 to 27 percent.
When our psychological and emotional wellbeing deteriorates, it has a huge cost, not only a financial cost for society, but also a human cost from a personal, family and social point of view.
It’s hardly surprising, then, that this issue has sparked the interest of many neuroscience researchers who, like Nafissa Ismail, are trying to understand brain function and find effective treatments for stress and mental disorders.
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NAFISSA ISMAIL:
Well, I have always had a passion for the brain, for neuroscience, since before I started university. But it wasn’t until I was in the first year of my bachelor’s degree that I started volunteering in research labs, in particular, a neuroscience research lab. And that’s when it became concrete in my mind: that’s the research I want to pursue.
After that, of course, neuroscience is a very vast field [LAUGHS]. But then, as I continued my research, I discovered that I really had a more specific interest in neuroendocrinology, which is the understanding of the impact of hormones on the brain.
HOST:
When we study the effects of hormones on the brain and nervous system, we inevitably turn our attention to a key period of hormonal transition: adolescence.
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NAFISSA ISMAIL:
Today, my research program is really focused on trying to prevent mental health disorders that begin during adolescence. When we look at epidemiological data today, we know that 75 percent of cases of depression in adulthood began during adolescence.
That’s why, on my side, with my research team, with my students, we have developed a mouse model that allows us to examine the fundamental mechanisms.
In mice, we collect a blood sample and measure the stress hormone corticosterone, which is found in mice and rats. It’s the equivalent of cortisol in humans. It’s the stress hormone.
HOST:
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We know that during adolescence, the brain is completely reorganized in preparation for adulthood. It’s a period of life during which certain neuronal circuits mature. This makes young adolescents vulnerable and what happens around them all the more decisive.
NAFISSA ISMAIL:
This is why, when stress occurs during this critical period, it not only increases the stress hormone, but also activates the immune system, which is a bit confusing, because we often tend to think that when the stress axis is active, the immune system is weakened. And that’s what we want. That’s a good response to stress.
But what we see is that often, during puberty or when we’re exposed to chronic stress, the opposite happens. So, instead of suppressing the immune system, the immune system becomes more active. The result is not only inflammation in the body, but also neuroinflammation in the brain.
And it’s this neuroinflammation that counteracts the maturation of neuronal circuits in the brain.
HOST:
Neuroinflammation is what researchers at the Université du Québec à Trois-Rivières have called “Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde.”
It occurs when immune cells alert the body to danger in the nervous system. This enables our body to trigger a reaction against the aggressor. In this case, a neuroinflammatory response is a good thing, as it protects the brain.
But it seems that stress can mislead immune cells. They would then start attacking the brain, instead of protecting it.
Under these conditions, what part of our body could repair the damage?
NAFISSA ISMAIL:
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But what we see is that the bacteria in our stomachs and intestines, the intestinal microbiota we call it ... This microbiota plays an important role in mediating the effects of stress on the brain. So, if we’re able to colonize the intestinal microbiota with bacteria that are anti-inflammatory, we’re able to counteract the effects of stress on the brain and prevent mental health disorders at that age.
Then to our mice, we simply give a two-week treatment with probiotics and that’s enough to protect their intestinal flora and also protect the brain from mental health disorders following exposure to a stressor.
We’re not yet at the point where we can say that, okay, probiotics are really what we need, and there’s still a lot of work to be done on that. But what the research is showing us is that there is a possibility of preventing mental health disorders during puberty and adolescence.
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HOST:
From the point of view of stress regulation, it’s therefore fortunate that we can influence our intestinal microbiota throughout our lives, even if ... it’s at birth that everything falls into place ...
Did you know that a vaginal microbiota plays a key role in shaping a newborn’s gut microbiota, and thus in the future development of their brain and mental health?
To understand possible stress factors on children and teenagers, we need to look at the human microbiota as a whole!
NAFISSA ISMAIL:
One area of research we’ve just started in the laboratory is trying to understand how, in adult women, exposure to stress or infections, whether bacterial or viral, will modify the woman’s vaginal microbiota. And as we know, when a baby is born, its intestinal microbiota is colonized through the mother’s vaginal microbiota, in the case of vaginal delivery.
This is very important, because it’s this microbiota that will later program brain development. So, if the vaginal microbiota is already inflammatory, it’s easy to understand the impact this will have on babies when they’re born.
And we know that during the pandemic, many women gave birth while having COVID, while they were infected with the virus. We know that there was a change in the vaginal flora, and they have given birth to babies who now have a lot of neurodevelopmental problems.
So, helping to understand the impact of stress doesn’t just have an effect on the generation we’re studying, but it’s important to bear in mind that it can have transgenerational effects, too. So, that’s why it’s important to be able to deal with all this as quickly as possible.
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We also realize that, in neuroscience, we’ve spent a lot of time examining the brain as an isolated organ, forgetting that it functions inside a body and that perhaps it interacts with other organs in the body as well. Now we’re starting to look at the gut–brain axis, the brain–heart axis, because we’re realizing that it all works together in the end.
And then I think it’s the fact that we didn’t look at this earlier that slowed down our discoveries of effective treatments. But I’m hopeful that now that we’re starting to take a more global approach it will help us develop treatments that will be more effective, more quickly.
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HOST:
Many people have seen Nafissa Ismail’s conviction and tenacity and have supported her.
NAFISSA ISMAIL:
For a woman to get to where she is, to progress in her scientific career, you need quite a substantial support network. And I was lucky to have that support, starting with my PhD supervisor who was really incredible and instrumental. I told him all the time that if it hadn’t been for him, I’d never have become a professor. So he really helped me, he supported me a lot, a lot. And he’s the one who encouraged me to go and do my post-doc in Massachusetts.
And I really enjoyed working with my post-doc supervisor. He was a more senior supervisor, so he had different expertise and experience from my PhD supervisor, but complemented each other very well.
He managed to teach me how to write scientifically [LAUGHS]. I had a lot of difficulties when I started as a student, but it was really him who ... I don’t know, his way of explaining, of, of ... I don’t know how to say it ... But it seems to have “clicked” afterwards with him and then it was, “Oh yes! Now I ... I understand, I can write.”
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Then I got the job here at the University of Ottawa, first as an assistant professor. I started building my research team with students. At first, I just had undergraduates, but they were excellent students. I couldn’t have asked for a better first team. These students really helped me to set up the laboratory, to ... In the beginning, when you start in the laboratory, you don’t have much, eh!
I’ve also had incredible support from my colleagues here at the School of Psychology and more specifically in the neuroscience sector. That, too, helped me to integrate quickly into the environment at the University of Ottawa. I couldn’t have asked for a more collaborative environment than this; it was really my colleagues who guided me in writing grant applications. That’s something you don’t know at all when you start out as a teacher. There are a lot of peculiarities. The fact that they took the time to read my requests, to give feedback, to help ... And it was really thanks to them that I managed to submit my first grant applications.
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And also to guide, right? When you start out as a teacher, there are so many things you have to do at once, and time is very limited. In my case, too, I had a one-month-old baby when I started my job. I had many, many things to manage at the same time. Then my colleagues came to my rescue and said: “Right now, for the first month, you’re going to concentrate on that. And then here, we’ll concentrate on this, and here we’ll concentrate on this.” Having these priorities helped me to become more productive, without feeling too overwhelmed by all the tasks that were coming up at the same time. So, I’m very grateful for their support.
HOST:
Nafissa Ismail is also very grateful to her parents, who immigrated to Canada from the Democratic Republic of Congo in 1974 and never had the opportunity to go to university because they had to give priority to supporting their family.
Even so, they felt that a good education was a must for their children, and they did everything in their power to ensure it.
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NAFISSA ISMAIL:
I’m also very grateful to my family. When we were very young, me, my brother, my sister ... My parents were always telling us: “Education is important! Concentrate, work hard.” So, that’s something they pushed us on a lot. And it was thanks to them that I continued my studies.
And then, of course, my husband because when I started my job here with our one-month-old baby, he was the one who sort of took a backseat and said “Well, I’m going to work from home.” He decided this so that we’d have a little more flexibility for our daughter, and I could be more present on campus with my work.
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It takes that support, doesn’t it? It’s important. And I think that, as a woman, you need that network, especially in the scientific world, because it’s so competitive.
We know that the pandemic had a big impact on the careers of women in science. Not only did they have their work, their research and their projects to manage, but they also had children at home, school at home, sick people at home. And all these responsibilities, whether we like it or not, even in Canada, tend to fall on women.
And many women during the pandemic decided to give up science, to give up their jobs. Unfortunately, we don’t talk about it enough. We haven’t been able to do much to support these women and their scientific careers. So, it’s a reality that needs to be highlighted, and we need to see what we can do: can we develop this collaborative network, this support network that will help our women and girls progress in the sciences, and then encourage them to pursue a scientific career?
HOST:
Beyond these aspirations for greater equity, what would be Nafissa Ismail’s dream?
NAFISSA ISMAIL:
My dream would really be that we ... progress toward a much more precise medicine than what we have at the moment. We realize that even with the effective medications we have, many have side effects. Some people will develop side effects to these drugs, but others won’t. So, I’d really like to see a system that’s much more precise. So, I’d love it if we could predict the probability of a person developing certain side effects from one medication compared to another.
For example, I’d like us to be able to take a patient, look at their microbiota profile and say: “Okay! According to your profile, this treatment is going to be more effective and will lead to fewer side effects than this other treatment that’s also available.”
The same goes for women. To tell them: “Well, if you look at your microbiota, if you take this formula of oral contraceptives, you’re more likely to develop depression, but take these instead and you’ll feel much better, and it’ll be better for your mental health, too, and for your brain.” So, it’s about saying to ourselves that we’re no longer in this world where it’s “one size fits all” or “one medication fits all” We really need to move beyond this way of thinking and say to ourselves: “Let’s look at the person and everything that’s going on inside them before prescribing a medication,” instead of prescribing and then, afterwards, looking at what’s going on there, do we adjust or not? Do we change or not? That’s what I’d like to see eventually.
Then, in terms of my research specifically, I’d really like to get to a level where we can really prevent mental health disorders during puberty and adolescence. We see that when our young people develop mental health problems, it has a significant impact on their quality of life, their ability to socialize and their academic performance. So, if we could prevent all this from happening very early on in their development, we’d really improve their quality of life.
HOST:
Former U.S. First Lady Michelle Obama wrote in her book Becoming, “We can live in the world as it is, but that doesn’t stop us from doing everything we can to create the world as it should be.”
That’s what researchers do.
Without Science with a capital “S,” there’s no salvation!
But ... from a personal and individual point of view, and despite all the imponderables each of us has to face, what can we do?
NAFISSA ISMAIL:
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Of course, what happens around us, other people, the environment ... These things are beyond our control, and there’s not much we can do about it. Except that, as a person, as a young person, we can try to develop a certain resilience. Because what we see is that a factor that is perceived as a stressor for one person is not necessarily going to be perceived as a stressor for another person. So, it really depends on how we interpret the situation.
Of course, it depends on a lot of things. It depends on our genetics, it depends on our past experiences, our personality and so on. So, there’s a lot that goes into it, of course.
It’s hard to do, but sometimes it helps to try and find a small positive in what seems to us to be a very stressful context. And sometimes, when we’re able to change our interpretation a little, we see that it helps to reduce stress, to manage the situation and also to develop a certain resilience.
I don’t really like using the word “resilience” because I feel like I’m saying that some people are resilient and others aren’t. But basically, what I’m trying to say is that there are certain mechanisms we can put in place that will help us better manage stressful situations. And it’s also important not to perceive every stress factor as negative because there are certain stress factors that are very important, and we need them! It’s important because it allows us to concentrate, to prioritize certain tasks, certain activities, and then to progress in life like that.
HOST:
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To avoid chronic stress caused by toxic relationships, intimidation, abuse and psychological violence, there are a number of techniques you can learn to implement.
In fact, Nafissa Ismail gives public talks to share some of the tools that are known to help manage stress in both young people and adults.
And on a personal level, what tools does she use on a daily basis?
NAFISSA ISMAIL:
I’d say it’s my passion for my research [LAUGHS] that, in a way, relaxes me. But what I have to remember is to sleep at a more appropriate hour, because I tend to work very long hours, even in the evenings. Then I wake up tired in the morning, and the fatigue builds up over the course of the week. But it’s also about realizing that when you sleep, you’re not necessarily falling behind on your work, but rather benefiting your health, and eventually your productivity, too, because the better rested you are, the better you can think! So, that’s something I need to work on. It’s important to have a good routine before bedtime, to better prepare ourselves for sleep, to better prepare our brains for sleep, to say, well, we’re sleeping now, stop thinking for a bit [LAUGHS].
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HOST
It’s reassuring to know that a professor at the School of Psychology is also prone to mental rumination ...
So, the winning recipe for good mental health would be a network of allies who want what’s best for us, an exciting profession and lots of sleep?
NAFISSA ISMAIL:
Yes, that’s it! And everyone’s different, so it’s important to do what you love, too! It’s important to have that little moment, every day, whether it’s 30 or 45 minutes, that you really calm down, disconnect a little from what’s going on.
HOST:
While there’s no one-size-fits-all solution that works for everyone like she said, you can follow these great tips.
Let’s also wish Nafissa Ismail the best of luck in her future endeavours, driven by her benevolence, dedication and passion for research, so that she can achieve her most cherished goal: to relieve the greatest number of people suffering from stress and mental disorders.
You’ve been listening to a podcast produced by the Canada Foundation for Innovation.
The CFI is a not-for-profit organization that provides funding to Canadian universities, colleges, research hospitals and non-profit research institutions to invest in research infrastructure.
To find out more, visit our website: Innovation.ca.
My name is Émilie Delattre. Thank you for listening.
See you soon!
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